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FrankO
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![[*]](./images/greyalliance2/default_icon.gif) posted on 5/7/10 at 20:45 |
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Custom-cutting Rio Outbound?
Being new to fly, I've been spending the past few weeks getting some experience with my first setup (Orvis Hydros 8-wt tip-flex rod, large-arbor
reel, Orvis 300g Depth Charge sinking line). I fish from the beach, harbor kayak and nearshore small boat about equally.
Since some of the spots I hit are a little on the deeper side, a couple of people have suggested trying a Rio Outbound T-14 line for the faster sink
rate. Sounds good, but I'm wondering about custom-cutting the line. I've seen Rio's length-to-weight chart, and understand the basic idea of
iteratively trimming and testing to get to the point that works for you. Being new at this, however, I'm not sure that I would necessarily recognize
the sweet spot on the flyline length when I get to it. Any suggestions on how to proceed with this?
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okiplug
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| posted on 6/7/10 at 05:41 |
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T-14 may be a bit too much line for this application.
Assuming you want to have 30' of head beyond the tip for normal loading and handling, you might find 30' x 14 grains per ft (T-14) = 420 gr a bit
heavy for an 8# weight. Perhaps 30' x T-11 would be better balanced at 330 grains?
Also, I don't know that you are going to achieve that much better of a sink rate rate than w/ your current line? What is the density of your Depth
Charge?
In regards to deeper presentations, kayak experts like Kim, have successfully incorporated sinkers into their presentations.
If you don't need to cast, local guide Bob Slamal developed a technique that uses extreme lengths of T-11 and T-14 at places like Skinner Lake to
"troll" their flies DEEP for stripers and bass. I see no reason why it wouldn't work in the salt too.
To achieve more depth while covering more water while barracuda fishing, I use bradied momo to splice another 50' of .035 Rio SlickShooter running
line onto the end of my Streamer Express' running line for an overall length of +/- 150'. Toachieve max depth while drifting, I will often cast
ahead of the boat to allow the entire line to sink out. When eveything comes tight start stripping.
Good luck,
Glenn
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JoeA
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| posted on 6/7/10 at 08:15 |
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Frank,
I use a T11 cut back to about 27 ft for my 8 wt rod and that works pretty well. If you want the same amount of load using a T14 you'll need to cut
back to about 21 ft. So you might first cut back to about 25 ft and see how well that casts. Remember to add a leader and a tuft of something to
simulate a large clouser or whatever pattern you usually use. I suspect that 25 ft might tend to overload so you'll need to cut back even more so do
it in increments of say a foot and repeat the above test at each increment. When you feel that the loading is about right stop or you'll be at the
point of no return!! You might also want to wait until a few more folks respond as someone might have better approach: Z-Finman is really good at
setting up these lines.
JoeA
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khanley
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| posted on 6/7/10 at 08:23 |
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Welcome to the board Frank.
I use 28' of T-11 for my 8-weight. Works perfect for my feel and field applications (CA, AK, MX, EU). I use it in the surf, around the kelpbeds, and
nearshore environs.
Enjoy the journey!
Cheers, Ken
There are no shortcuts...no...shortcuts...no...
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RichardCullip
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| posted on 6/7/10 at 08:36 |
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I've currently got 30ft of T-11 on my 8wt (TFO TiCrX) and I think it's a bit heavy. Of course, that may have more to do with my casting stroke than
the ability of the rod to handle 330 grns. If I could start the forward stroke a little bit slower, stop the rod with more authority and time my haul
a bit better, I'm sure the rod would easily toss 30ft of T-11 a country mile. As it is, I tend to shock the rod with too quick a start and I get an
ugly result at the end of the cast.
I'll have to try 28ft that Ken uses with good success.
Life is good. Eternal life is better!
Richard
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Steve_P
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| posted on 6/7/10 at 08:45 |
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Frank,
Welcome to the board. Great info was offered above. Just a few
more comments.
The short answer to your question
is to line up your rig
and try casting it on grass - rig it up with a leader and
fly (with the hook cut at the bend) as mentioned above.
Don't be hasty to cut the line - it's hard
to lengthen it again. Although shooting head lines
were designed to be cast with the head entirely outside
the tip top, with several feet of running line, integrated lines
like the Rio Outbounds don't
have a nasty joint so you can cheat quite a bit
by pulling part of the head inside the guides during your trials, and even in fishing situations - effectively decreasing the
weight of the line that you are casting. You may find
that this works fine for you and you don't really need to cut the head.
In any case, take your time.
The longer answer goes like this:
For all these environments, they don't get any better than
Ken Hanley, so you can take his advice (above) to the bank -
28 ft of T11 for an 8 weight - but you might have to go
shorter or longer to adjust for your particular rod and your casting.
I suspect that the Depth Charge is fine, if not perfect, for
starting out in the surf or local bays. You might want
a better sink rate in the nearshore waters.
I think the sink rate of the 300 grain Orvis Depth Charge is 5.25 inch
per sec (IPS), if this fly shop info is correct (couldn't find
sink rate specs on Orvis sites):
http://www.fishingthecape.com/orvis-products/orvis-lines-and-leaders/depth-charge-sinking.html
whereas the sink rate of the Rio Outbound Custom
is listed as 7, 8 and 9 IPS for T8, T11, and T14 respectively
http://www.rioproducts.com/photos/file/RIO_sinking_08_specs.pdf
so all else being the same you can gain a bit of sink speed by using
the T11 or T14.
A much cheaper way to increase your sink rate is to use very thin 20-25 lb Amnesia or
35 lb Rio Slickshooter with a T11 or T14 or T17 head but there
is a tradeoff in manageability/tangling of the line.
FYI, there is loads more good info for the nearshore habitat presented on John Loo's site
Beyond the Breakwater. The equipment used by
the top placers in the June 2010 tourney in the
nearshore and kelp is listed here:
http://www.btbff.com/index.php/btbff/1EMPS/882/P2/
Most used 350-425 grain lines I think which
for the same length head, would sink a bit faster than your
300 grain line but were often thrown on 9 or even 10 wts.
However, guide Bryan Webb, who took top honors
this year with lots of calicos, used a Rio Outbound
Short (30 ft head) (grains not specified) on a 6 wt - he might chime in here with his
thoughts on getting deep in the nearshore game or you can
contact him at his website pcflyfishing.com
Have fun,
Steve_P
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FrankO
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| posted on 6/7/10 at 09:45 |
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Thanks to all for the helpful replies, that's a lot of good info to chew over.
A little more by way of background -- as part of my indoctrination I've had a couple of good half-day trips with Bill Matthews (in L.A. Harbor) and
Bryan Webb (just yesterday in Newport). On Bill's boat I used one of his 8-wt Sage Xi3's with custom-cut T-14 (not recalling the exact weight right
offhand, info is at home) and found it worked pretty well. Yesterday I was catching calicos in about 60 feet of water outside Newport, and it was
Bryan who recommended considering Outbound T-14 to kick up the sink rate in situations like that. Orvis says the rate on my 300g Depth Charge is
5.5" per second, whereas the T-14 is more like 9".
I like the way the Depth Charge casts in the surf, so I was thinking that I'd keep that on one spool for that situation. I do fish a lot around
Palos Verdes off my boat, though, and I think it was at these spots where you might be in 60 feet or so that Bryan thought the T-14 would work well.
I'm not seeing that these would require really long casts -- more like getting the line out and down quickly.
I see, though, that the sink rate of T-11 is close to that of the T-14. So that might be an option that would cover more situations.
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JoeA
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| posted on 6/7/10 at 13:26 |
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Frank,
Steve Piper has a lot of good advice in his writeup, e.g.: integrated lines are a little more forgiving because you don't need to worry about feeding
the loops/knots, etc. through the guides; I personally use the T11, T14 shooting heads coupled to the SlickShooter running line using a large triple
surgeon's loop in the SlickShooter and a loop on the backend of the shooting head. By doing this you can have a walletful of different heads which
can easily be changed because the large surgeon's loop allows passing of 20 to 30 feet of coiled line through it. Bingo you now have a system that's
easily changed for any condition with only one reel/spool/running line/backing and not the expense of a bunch of integrated lines which almost
necessitate multiple spools; since you already have the one integrated line use that to calibrate the required length of shooting head you need using
Steve's method described above and then calculate out what the length/weight of each type of line should be (it's handy to have a rather sensitive
scale measuring down to the gram or sub-gram range to weigh a line before cutting to make sure you don't cut too deeply - Steve makes a good point
that it's easy to shorten the line and a little harder to lengthen it!!).
JoeA.
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Steve_P
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| posted on 6/7/10 at 14:19 |
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Frank,
Wow - OK, good to know the background - having fished with
nearshore superstars Bill and Bryan you are way ahead of the game...
Fishing a fly at 60 ft
and with little casting to boot is a different ball game - ha ha. I would guess for even faster sinking you could
knot about 18-20 feet of T17 on Amnesia or Slickshooter or Sufix Elite or Big Game
and lower away using your 8 wt... but a higher weight rod with
a longer head might
be a better choice. I think Z-finman told me he has caught fish with a fly
rod at 165-170 or so ft... extreme fly fishing. He adds bullet weights
to the mix. And then there are bait casters and spinning rods...
Steve_P
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FrankO
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| posted on 6/7/10 at 17:17 |
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I do have to say that, for a new guy like me, booking an outing with a guide is a really helpful way to move up the learning curve. And they're
great people as well.
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Dave
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| posted on 6/7/10 at 20:57 |
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Line talk full circle
Frank,
Here's to keeping it simple... At the last One Surf Fly I was lucky enough to win an Orvis Depth Charge sinking line DC300. It was a great prize
since my Airflo Depth Finder 300 grain had been fished pretty hard for over a year and was starting to show signs of wear. I spooled the Depth Charge
line on to my Lamson Litespeed 3, put a loop on the end of the head with a couple of nail knots, attached a leader to it and fished it (and still fish
it) on my 8 wt. with no problems. That's about as simple as it gets :). As for fishing a fly in 60 ft. of water; Tod and I fished the Horseshoe a
couple of weeks ago and though we didn't get any 'cuda love', we did score on some calicos and sand bass. The bass were in 65 feet of water and
according to the graph they were suspended no higher than 10 to 15 feet from the bottom. That day I fished a 6 wt. with a 200 grain streamer express
and a clouser with medium sized lead dumb bell eyes. After the cast I threw out a couple of mends then dead sticked it as we rolled with some
respectable swells, occasionally adding a few doodles or long lazy strips. The 200 grain had no problem reaching the fish that day. I thought about
swithing to a 300 grain or even a 400 grain, but as long as the line kept coming tight I saw no reason the change. Just my 2 cents...
Dave
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Steve_P
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| posted on 7/7/10 at 05:24 |
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armchair vs on the water...
Dave,
Glad you chipped in. On the water experience trumps everything
else.
The 200 grain streamer express is listed at 5.5 IPS so
it should take 109-120 seconds to reach 50-55 ft if you can
get it to free fall by mending as you mentioned. If you
were to cast and retrieve all the way back to the boat multiple times, this would take alot
of time, and with the fly in unproductive water a good part of
that time, but I suppose what makes it effective to fish with a fly line at
50 ft depth is that you cast, let it sink, strip the fly at intervals,
but instead of retrieving all the way to the boat, you keep the
fly in the 50 ft zone plus/minus 10-15 ft, by alternately feeding
line and stripping line, or just letting the fly drift with the current
and boat, working it until you get bit. I have read
and heard that the practical limit of fly fishing is 20-30 ft depth
so it all depends on your definition of fly fishing, I suppose.
Also, I also suppose that the fly can be more effective than
a fast sinking jig in this situation because you can dead drift the lightweight fly and
impart action to it and/or let the fly materials give the illusion of
movement and life. Sorry just thinking out loud...
Comments?
Thanks,
Steve_P
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hiptothat
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| posted on 7/7/10 at 12:07 |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by FrankO
Being new to fly, I've been spending the past few weeks getting some experience with my first setup (Orvis Hydros 8-wt tip-flex rod, large-arbor
reel, Orvis 300g Depth Charge sinking line). I fish from the beach, harbor kayak and nearshore small boat about equally.
Since some of the spots I hit are a little on the deeper side, a couple of people have suggested trying a Rio Outbound T-14 line for the faster sink
rate. Sounds good, but I'm wondering about custom-cutting the line. I've seen Rio's length-to-weight chart, and understand the basic idea of
iteratively trimming and testing to get to the point that works for you. Being new at this, however, I'm not sure that I would necessarily recognize
the sweet spot on the flyline length when I get to it. Any suggestions on how to proceed with this? |
Recognizing the sweet spot...
The sweet spot is subjective depending on what feels good to you when the rod loads.
You'll need to trust your instincts as you cast and cut. Also what feels good to you now may not feel good a year from now as your casting
evolves.
As you get experience you'll be able to figure out pretty quickly where the sweet spot is.
If you already know the new head is going to be over lined for your rod try casting it at first with just the head and no leader. Most likely you
will be able to tell it is grossly overloading the rod and you can start making some rough cuts. When it starts to feel better add the leader and
fly to refine it.
Also all will not be lost if you don't make the perfect cut.
With time on the water you'll be able to adapt to your casting stroke/ timing as long as it is not too over or underlined.
Fishing deep (60 feet) is a grey area for fly fishing.
The best but most costly way would be to dedicate a rod specifically for fishing deep by going with a full sink line (I think Rio makes a type 7 full
sink) or build your own t-14 coupled with the thinnest running line you can find. I would not cut it if you go this route just leave the t-14 full
length. This setup is not meant for distance casting. Chuck and duck the head out and start counting.
It is pretty simple to build your own integrated shooting head line with a braided sleeve and some well placed nail knots. If you do it right you
will hardly notice the splice passing through the guides.
Trying to fish deep using any other route you will have to compromise in some way.
This can be as simple as changing out lines on the water, or a bigger compromise by adding lead weight to your leader via bullet or even sliding a
rubber core a few feet above the fly.
Here's the question (smile)
Your driving down the road in a sports car the pavement ends and turns into a dirt road. Do you continue driving or would you rather jump into a
rally car? jon
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Dave
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| posted on 7/7/10 at 12:38 |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Steve_P
Dave,
Glad you chipped in. On the water experience trumps everything
else.
The 200 grain streamer express is listed at 5.5 IPS so
it should take 109-120 seconds to reach 50-55 ft if you can
get it to free fall by mending as you mentioned. If you
were to cast and retrieve all the way back to the boat multiple times, this would take alot
of time, and with the fly in unproductive water a good part of
that time, but I suppose what makes it effective to fish with a fly line at
50 ft depth is that you cast, let it sink, strip the fly at intervals,
but instead of retrieving all the way to the boat, you keep the
fly in the 50 ft zone plus/minus 10-15 ft, by alternately feeding
line and stripping line, or just letting the fly drift with the current
and boat, working it until you get bit. I have read
and heard that the practical limit of fly fishing is 20-30 ft depth
so it all depends on your definition of fly fishing, I suppose.
Also, I also suppose that the fly can be more effective than
a fast sinking jig in this situation because you can dead drift the lightweight fly and
impart action to it and/or let the fly materials give the illusion of
movement and life. Sorry just thinking out loud...
Comments?
Thanks,
Steve_P |
Steve,
When you were scratching numbers on to your chalk board; did you figure the medium lead eyes (approximately 7/32 oz.) into the sink rate? Just
asking... :) No need to re-calculate, here's a simple measure... it's about the same time it takes to cast, throw a few mends, reach down and take
a drink from a cool beverage, grab a handful of honey roasted cashews and maybe 'adjust yourself'... right about then, you should be in the strike
zone and feel the tug :) .
You did raise a couple of valid points though. The retrieve and feed line back method to keep the fly down deep (I believe that's called 'stair
stepping'??) was used when we were fishing deep and I would have to agree that fishing 30+ feet deep (even with a fly and fly rod) is questionable
'fly fishing'. That afternoon, while Tod, Webb and I lounged on the deck of the boats and discussed the day's fishing; I brought that very point
up. I'm sure there are many endless opinions on what justifies a 'fly' and what is or is not 'fly fishing' and I'm not raising these questions
because those horses have already been beat, but if I had my choice I'd rather fish the top of the water column.
Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to get bit,
Dave
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okiplug
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| posted on 7/7/10 at 15:15 |
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Just another way of getting DEEP ;). Those crazy Hawaiians!
http://books.google.com/books?id=jOL2lL0NmEUC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=mike+sakamoto+amberjack+fly+fish+deep&source=bl&
amp;ots=bhl25b9XqW&sig=4Z2hXXfn6Qi4pZnvejlQvB2Jnk4&hl=en&ei=pwk1TIOLIo2inQfEpIXgAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&
amp;ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#
Glenn
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Steve_P
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| posted on 7/7/10 at 15:33 |
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ha ha. you guys are good... time on the water - and on the bboard...
Like Hip said (succinctly as usual) - but a rally car? since we're dreaming/scheming anyways, make it a helicopter...or a speeding Volvo wagon...
Dave - sorry, I was thinking 3/16"... right... who knows how they get those sink rates anyways - do they drop a coil in
the water or is it connected to a running line, with a real leader, with tension on the
running line... and yeah, I already went over the line on the fly fishing issue - I may be dreaming but I
think IGFA states that you are stuck with the amount of line you can cast. Can't
strip off anymore. But I don't know what their stance is on jigging or stair stepping -
probably no bueno... I know... who cares...
Glenn - a break-away stone. Faster than a speeding bullet weight!
Steve_P
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JoeA
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| posted on 7/7/10 at 19:08 |
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Wow guys!! Poor FrinkO's question originally was:
"Being new to fly, I've been spending the past few weeks getting some experience with my first setup (Orvis Hydros 8-wt tip-flex rod, large-arbor
reel, Orvis 300g Depth Charge sinking line). I fish from the beach, harbor kayak and nearshore small boat about equally.
Since some of the spots I hit are a little on the deeper side, a couple of people have suggested trying a Rio Outbound T-14 line for the faster sink
rate. Sounds good, but I'm wondering about custom-cutting the line. I've seen Rio's length-to-weight chart, and understand the basic idea of
iteratively trimming and testing to get to the point that works for you. Being new at this, however, I'm not sure that I would necessarily recognize
the sweet spot on the flyline length when I get to it. Any suggestions on how to proceed with this?"
Since he states that he's a rather new fly fisherman, are we overwhelming him with all this deep water talk? Looking above at his setup for the
original question it seems as though he's trying to come up with a versatile system that will easily adapt to a wide variety of conditions: surf,
shallow to moderate depths of bays and around the kelp beds in the PV area. I hope he isn't being overwhelmed by all this debate on how best to
attain 60 to 100 ft depths. While I've fished these sort of depths on occasion (although not too effectively) it's not what I'd consider one of my
prime targets. I think I'm getting the impression that it's the same for many of the respondents above.
JoeA,
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FrankO
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| posted on 7/7/10 at 19:39 |
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| Quote: | | I hope he isn't being overwhelmed by all this debate on how best to attain 60 to 100 ft depths. |
No, it's all very informative (or, here and there, entertaining).
Actually one of the first questions I asked at the outset was what was the practical depth limit for fly fishing. It's probably a matter of taste.
But I can see some point in having a faster-sinking line in some situations. I think I got enough out of the discussion here of custom-cutting line
to try this myself if that's what I end up doing. I'd like to cast T-14 and T-11 line more before deciding on anything.
Meanwhile I just got a vise today, so that's a whole other slippery slope to start down ...
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Steve_P
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| posted on 8/7/10 at 05:40 |
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simple start...maybe
On Dan Blanton's fly fishing site, saltwater sharpie Peter Morse posted a simple scheme that he uses for remembering the
length of LC13 (Cortland lead core line 13 grains per foot) or T14 for each weight rod (below). And saltwater veteran Dan Blanton uses 28 ft of
T14 on all his 8 weights (below). I would guess you will probably find the recommended 28 ft of T14 too heavy for comfortable
casting with your 8 wt (I know I do) but this
is a conservative starting point...you will probably be able to chuck it OK, and you can cut from there as needed... (but if
you get shorter than about 25 ft, loops will start to open early
(dump) and casting will involve chucking more than throwing
loops...if you get to that point you might investigate T11...didn't
I say Hanley is a sharpie??)
Steve_P.
Posted by Morsie on 2005-08-18 18:45:28 in reply to Re: LC 13 & T14 lengths for 8wt RPLXi posted by Stu on 2005-08-18 13:23:35
As a rough guide to using these lines I find that the last digit of the length of line closely suits the weight of the rod.
8 weight - 28 feet
9 weight 29 feet
10 weight 30 feet
11 weight 31 feet
12 weight 32 feet
It doesn't fit with recommended grain weights but it works for me.
Morsie
Posted by Dan Blanton on 2008-10-25 00:39:28 in reply to Re: What Length T-14 for an 8 weight? posted by Rick J on 2008-10-23 14:47:49
Rick,
I've long used 28 feet of T-14 on all of my 8 weight rods and at least 350 grains with integrated heads such as the SA Streamer Express lines. Most
modern rods that are stiff and fast perform wonderfully with loads such as these. I don't find that any of them are "overloaded" with 28-feet of
T-14. Of course all of this depends upon the skill level of the caster. Poor casters will have difficulty with lines that match the grain weight of
the rod, regardless of their type. Knowing how to properly cast shooting heads and integrated shooting heads is paramount to success.
Underlining a rod will engender more problems with casting than up-lining a rod by one or two line sizes. I'd rather error on the heavy side than go
to light.
I've experimented a length with sinking lines over the past 4 decades and find what I've said to be correct.
Dan
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Steve_P
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| posted on 9/7/10 at 00:14 |
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one more kick...
That dead horse ain't feeling no pain, so let me give it just
one more kick...
What length of T14 should you use on your 8 weight
Frank? We failed to mention that the rod designer
has already provided a recommendation for you!
The Orvis rod designer for your Hydros (maybe Tom Rosenbauer?) decided that your rod casts best with an
8 weight line and labelled it to reflect that!
The 8 weight line that the rod designer used was a full line not
a shooting head line and it weighed approximately 210 grains
in the first 30 feet, as specified in the AFTMA line weight
table:
Weight Grains Range in grains
1-Weight 60 54-66
2-Weight 80 74-86
3-Weight 100 94-106
4-Weight 120 114-126
5-Weight 140 134-146
6-Weight 160 152-168
7-Weight 185 177-193
8-Weight 210 202-218
9-Weight 240 230-250
10-Weight 280 270-290
11-Weight 330 318-342
12-Weight 380 368-392
13-Weight 450
14-Weight 500
15-Weight 550
For a shooting head line instead of a full line, you should use a line that is approximately
2 weights higher - in this case 280 grains. (The rationale for
this that I have heard is that rod designers typically cast with
40 feet or so of fly line outside the rod tip in their determinations,
and although the first 30 feet weigh 210 grains in this case,
the additional 10 feet account for an additional 2 line weights,
whereas for a shooting head, the additional 10 feet is nearly
weightless running line. So, for example, you need a 10 weight shooting
head to match the weight of the full 8 weight line that was used in
testing. Rio actually started labeling shooting
heads to reflect the 2 weights over rule in 2005 but it kinda
added to the confusion). The "2 weights higher" is a general
recommendation. For some line configurations, and for different
rods, casters, and applications, some casters prefer to go 1 or 3 weights higher, and
in Blanton's case (and Peter Morse) that I mentioned above he apparently is happy with
a bit more than 4 weights higher for his 8 weights (28 feet of
T14 = 392 grains, the high end for 12 weight line in the
AFTMA table above).
For 8 weights, the length of T14 that gives 2 weights higher, or 280 grains,
is 280/14 = 20 feet. 3 weights higher, or 330 grains,
is 330/14 = 23.6 feet, and 4 weights higher is 380/14 = 27 feet. So you can see that starting with 28 feet of T14 is a conservative
(probably longer than needed) starting point for an 8 weight rod.
Ken Hanley mentioned that he likes 28 ft of T11 on his 8 weights. This is 308 grains or 2 weights (plus) over an 8 weight
(10 weight in AFTMA table is 270-290 grains)
right in there with the standard recommendation for shooting
heads...
Now you know more than you wanted to, and are equipped to
fill lots of bulletin board space with text about matching
shooting head lines to particular rods...
Steve_P
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Steve_P
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| posted on 10/7/10 at 05:07 |
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And one more kick regarding getting the fly line deep.
I believe fly sink rates assume that the line is falling horizontally.
If your fly has enough weight, the fly line will start falling fly
end first in a more vertical orientation. The sink rate for this
orientation is probably quite a bit faster. A thinner leader
of straight fluoro would probably help the fly line fall faster
this way...
I think on the video Coastal Fly Fishing with Ken Hanley
and Friends (2001), fishing 5 or so
coastal locations on the West, Gulf, Florida and East
Coasts with fly fishing notables Mel Krieger, Nick Curcione,
Wanda Taylor, Flip Pallot, Lani Waller and Jack
Gartside (fascinating look at various
locations around the US, and different saltwater habitats,
with casting and fishing demos thrown in)
Ken Hanley fly fishes the docks in
San Diego Bay and feeds the line in a vertical orientation.
Also, notable on that video, Mel Krieger shows the basics
of casting a shooting head, and relates a story about steelhead fishing
with Bill Schaadt - by cutting his heads short, to 26 ft I think,
Schaadt was able to make alot more casts than Krieger because
the shorter head allowed him to use fewer false casts. Probably
more important for steelhead fishing than surf fishing.
Steve_P
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FrankO
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| posted on 10/7/10 at 12:14 |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Steve_P
I believe fly sink rates assume that the line is falling horizontally. If your fly has enough weight, the fly line will start falling fly end first in
a more vertical orientation. The sink rate for this orientation is probably quite a bit faster. A thinner leader of straight fluoro would probably
help the fly line fall faster this way... |
Interesting point. The sink rates probably assume no weight from the fly at all, I'd think. This morning I had a little free time, and fished the
outside breakwall at King Harbor for a bit from my kayak, using a clouser with fairly weighty eyes. The line went tight much faster (about twice as
fast) than what you'd expect from the advertised sink rate and the depth per the fishfinder. (Caught some plaids, but nothing really
photo-worthy.)
Has that video ever come out on DVD? I'm only finding it online in VHS. Not sure our player still works ...
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Steve_P
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| posted on 12/7/10 at 13:58 |
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Wayne Peterson at Rio emailed me this description about how
they determine sink rates of their fly lines:
" We test our sink rates in a fresh water controlled environment
meaning that there is no wind and no algae or other debris on the
water. We test using one inch cut pieces, that are timed as they sink
in a large clear cylindrical tube. No leader, fly or running line are
attached during our testing of sink rates. We do this to get a true
sink rate of the "sinking portion" of the line."
My (Steve's) comment:
A horizontally falling line with leader and running line attached
undoubtedly sinks slower than this, but a vertically oriented one - hmmm. who knows...
Peterson also mentioned that he has heard from guys in Oregon
and Alaska who fish for halibut, ling cod and rockfish in 30-60 ft of
water with 50 (to 100!!) ft heads of T17 attached to mono
running lines... T17 sinks at 10 IPS.
Steve_P
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Dave
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| posted on 12/7/10 at 15:33 |
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Steve,
Step away from the computer and go fish :)
Dave
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okiplug
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| posted on 12/7/10 at 17:59 |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
Steve,
Step away from the computer and go fish :)
Dave |
Always good advice :)!
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